I think you need to read the article Hershey, it is in part about those gitmo detainees. I can understand those who have lost friends or loved ones having a difficult time dealing with what he said about the gitmo situation...human nature being as it is, it is understandable that empathy or sympathy for some of those detainees will not be too forthcoming. But there is such a thing as justice regardless. Please read the article...and share how you feel about it.

 on the issue of obama asking Aung San Suu Kyi's release while keeping Omar Khadr in imprisoned are two different things. I believe one should first read up on both to see that what they stand for, what they've done..are different. Suu Kyi never picked up a firearm in her life. Her only crime is that she is OUTSPOKEN about democracy in her country. That's not true for Omar Khadr.

He may be jailed at 15..but people should know that some children do grow up pretty fast. Insurgents in my country are indoctrinated at the age of 8..and they get their first kill at 10 years old. they're already training other children at 12. So you can't apply your values [not jailing minors] here.

Again... I believe this calls for a lawyer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aung_San_Suu_Kyi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr

I wont respond to your comment until I've read those links, thanks Rica.

I went to those links and I read and read and got more and more disgusted. Yes, there's a big difference between the two circumstances...huge....but the most outstanding difference is they way each one was/is being treated by their captors. This was a 15 year old boy, a child...and I can too apply my values here...its wrong, just plain wrong. You hear these sorts of things happening in other countries, but would anyone believe Americans are capable of doing these terrible things? What happened to America being the "noble" nation...defining for the rest of the world what is right and wrong. You think the treatment of khadr at the hands of those in gitmo is okay? I dont. and he's one of many. Nobody knows what really goes on at those rendition camps, everyone got to hear about Abu Ghraib and the uproar was deafening...so why is it not so with what is going on or has been going on at Gitmo? How many of those detainees are innocent? Is it justified to torture innocents regardless? 

Eky has been posting a lot about this but it seems to fall on deaf ears. I too have read his posts but after a few hours, I've forgotten them. Maybe its time for people to not forget that these things are happening. It is not okay to torture innocents. Find out first if they are innocent or not...those who indeed perpetrated the atrocity of 9/11 deserve what they get...but innocents are entitled to justice. 

which is why you can't compare him with suu kyi. sorry...but she's an activist and a peaceful one to boot. she has fought for democracy for her country. for me it's like calling cory aquino a terrorist.

I dont think we're on the same page here Rica. I support Suu Kyi. I have always deplored her treatment by the junta. I believe the whole world should keep working to get her released.

The article was about Obama calling for the Burmese government to release her and condemning her treatment on the one hand, and doing what they are doing in gitmo on the other hand. 

I dont know about that Martin, I just read and felt sick. You know, eky has been on this so much and I, like most others just let it go. We need more ekys!!!! America is supposed to be about justice and upholding the rights of innocent people and treating people better than other countries do. At least that was what I believed. This is just sickening and I cant stand it.

Maria, the sad thing is that while Bush was doing this the Republicans kept quiet--now they will start pointing the finger at Obama and yell murder BUT the issue of torture and innocent until proven guilt will be forgotten.

The Right Wingers are already jumping all over Obama for holding the trial in NYC just as they would no matter where he held it--also whether it should be a military or civilian trial and again the issue of torture and innocence will be forgotten.

Then there is no longer any justice in this world, is there??

Innocent until proven guilty is a right given ot Americans by America.

and is this only applicable to Americans and not anyone else?

I dont know if I want to go there....I think I've read enough for the moment. I feel sick to my stomach on what I've read so far. Okay, I guess I'm doing what most are doing, hiding my head in the sand and wanting to pretend I dont know whats going on. But it is just too sickening, I'm afraid. I dont have the stomach for it.

I understand. It can be very overwhelming and I usually have to force myself to do something positive sometimes so I don't dwell on it. The truth is very disturbing. Have a nice day.

Thanks Mr B. I will check it out, but not right now. You're right, it is overwhelming. 

To be honest though, her interview isn't as graphic as chuckman's post. She was a military wife and she recalls some of her experiences involving her husband and the cover-ups and scandals. I think it is imporatant for everyone to know the truth, but absorb only what you can take.

okay, thank you Mr B, I will.

I guess everything. The article and the stories. Most of my life I have always thought...Thank God for America. They are the good guys and as long as they're the number one superpower, there will always be more justice than if they were not. I dont know why I have always considered that most Americans, although capable of many things...inspite of being the only nation in the world to have dropped the atomic bomb on two cities..and the things done in Vietnam...both of which many thousands of people are still suffering the after effects even today...I still believed and hoped that everything was done for the good of all mankind. I believe this is no longer the case though. I think so much has changed since 9/11...its like America is seeking vengeance for being attacked and to heck with justice and nobility standing in its way.

I still have to read all of the article, but your last statement up above is kinda true today. The ends justify the means so to speak. You see, that with a lot of people in this country and here on blogger, the cost of doing business like we have been being in untold amounts of billions of dollars to avenge the attack and the deaths of 3,000 innocent people here on American soil is a great way to spend our tax money and run up our deficit. I know this is off subject , but it's the head in the sand principle you were talking about. But for these very same people, these American Patriots, they could give a crap that 3,500 innocent Americans lose their lives due to the lack of health insurance EVERY month. That's more (easy math) than died on that day. But they are will to spend the money on war, but not save lives. That is also appalling. I will read that post, but I had to say this also.

yep...I know what you're saying Charlie, but this is a whole different thing altogether. I feel as though, or I sound like I am making a judgement here but really all I'm saying is, the notion I had of who are the good guys is being whittled away. I guess I should read more and learn more...but then again, in this case maybe ignorance is bliss, I dont know.

he admitts sheepishly, "I still haven't read it but I will".

See what you do!  You make me break my own rules.

My issue here is more on what is being done to him in Gitmo holly. I thought only the likes of Saddam Hussein and nasty dictators did these things to their "detainees". Yes, I've heard the horror stories like Abu Ghraib and I read eky's numerous posts on the things happening to detainees regardless of whether they're innocent or not. That is what I have a problem with. Most people around the world look to America as being the one who would fight for justice for all no matter what....most people around the world have no idea what goes on in reality. 

what rule is that holly? and why am I getting two notifications for each comment posted here....it is so annoying!!

Well I posted two comments?  My rule of three paragraphs or less comments!

As to what is being done.  All is fair.  Terrorist camp is not supposed to be fun.  I am sure the same is true for the contiries terror camps they came from remeber the televised beheadings.  You can still watch on the net ............

oh okay...sorry I didnt know you made that rule for yourself. You are free to break that rule any time on my posts....I am interested in your opinion so please dont hold back.

Yes, that is precisely my point...I have seen all the atrocities...well not ALL of it but many that you all have seen as well. So therefore, because other countries do it...its okay for America who fights against these sorts of atrocities and injustice to do the same?

I think you missed my point completely here Brian. I have no doubt..not one smidgen of a doubt about all the good America has done and continues to do. This is precisely why I found this whole thing very upsetting and disturbing. Does all the good your country does justify even a few atrocities in those rendition camps and whats happened or is continuing to happen in Gitmo? Is the justice for a few who may be totally innocent expendable? If so, then when it comes to injustice and atrocities, America is no better than the countries they try to liberate from such horrendous things. 

This has nothing to do with what the media chooses to report or not. Whether anything of this nature is reported by any media is of no relevance. The point is, these things are happening and the question is, should America be doing any of it at all? A country which holds itself up as being noble and good and fights for freedom and justice all over the world...and yet the things they do behind closed doors belies all this nobility and greatness. Do you think it is justified?

(by the way, I am not in a bad mood or anything...lol....just asking a question without any aspersion on your views whatsoever). Thanks for your input Brian. I am not being anti-American here....I am merely questioning what I have read and how you all feel about it.

By the way, can you please clarify that bit about...If not for America, Australia may not be enjoying the freedoms they currently have? 

Me too...it is a very difficult issue..on the one hand America needs to uphold their values as a leader and show the rest of the world what is right and just and what is not. On the other hand America needs to do what it can to protect  itself and its allies and destroy the perpetrators of all the injustice...the question is at what price?

I dont have a problem with that. But we must not diminish the Australians role in protecting and fighting for their own freedom as well as the rest of the world. America did not do it on her own. Our soldiers fought and died for what Australia enjoys now with the help of the Americans.

That's okay Brian, I understand. Just sticking up for my fellow countrymen...you know how it is.....I wouldnt be an aussie if I didnt.

yup, I surely agree Brian. It is a difficult situation I understand that. It must be a gut-wrenching issue with the powers that be. Why cant we all just have a peaceful world and everybody gets along...that is the BILLION dollar question....thanks for your input to my article Brian...much appreciated.

Yup, I agree. But I think I've had enough depressing negativity for a while Brian. I am going to focus on all the good things in spite of how horrid all this sounds. Now, where's my "funnies" pics and jokes folder??????

I have already read that Anon...and I read all of it from beginning to end. It did not make things any clearer. I still dont think he was treated humanely and dont see any difference between his treatment and the treatment of evil people elsewhere in the world.

Thank you anoymous

yes I read your comment over there Charlie. I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds it shocking. I'm quite surprised at the reaction from some people here though. Disgusted even. There are some who seem to think anything America does is okay, some who think these things are justified in the war on terror to "keep America safe"...some wont say anything for fear of demonizing the Bush/Cheney administration....some are just heartless arseholes. 

This is a big pus-filled scab on the skin of humanity. And the fact that it is perpetrated by a country which is supposed to be a world leader in the fight for human rights and justice is shocking. It will lead others to think, well if its okay for them to do it, we can do it too. So, any allied soldier captured by the enemy is even in more grave danger of being brutalized than ever before. Well done Bush/Cheney!!!

exactly......

I left this on your post over there, but just incase you miss it. 

Charlie: this is sick. Another war crime by the Bush/Cheney administration. When are these two going to be tried???

Just three days after becoming the new president of the United States, Barack Obama approved a devastating missile attack against targets in Pakistan.

“The Obama Administration simply ignored Section 4(a)(3) of the WPR when it announced the escalation,” Boyle noted. “U.S. armed forces are in Afghanistan originally pursuant to WPR. Its requirement that the President get Congressional consent on substantial enlargement (of forces) was put there to deal with the kind of gradual escalation we saw in Viet Nam that eventually led to 550,000 troops being there,” Boyle said.

President Obama “has now escalated the conflict into Pakistan and has set off a humanitarian catastrophe for 2-million of its people similar to what President Nixon set off in Cambodia,” Boyle said. “What Obama is doing is destabilizing Pakistan and setting off a civil war there. It’s a very dangerous, illegal, unconstitutional policy,” Boyle said.

Obama preserves renditions as counter-terrorism tool

The role of the CIA's controversial prisoner-transfer program may expand, intelligence experts say.

February 01, 2009|Greg Miller

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/feb/01/nation/na-rendition1

WASHINGTON — The CIA's secret prisons are being shuttered. Harsh interrogation techniques are off-limits. And Guantanamo Bay will eventually go back to being a wind-swept naval base on the southeastern corner of Cuba.

But even while dismantling these programs, President Obama left intact an equally controversial counter-terrorism tool.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6011693

Barack Obama wants us to execute "Change we believe in". However he is regurgitating the Neocon agenda in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Carpet bombing Afghanistani civilians with Daisy Cutters did not eliminate the opposition to occupation, it fueled the resistance.

again, I find what you post to be skewed at best and more often than not, to be flat out wrong and nothing more than disinformation. Did you complain when Bush invaded Iraq? For no reason? Over a million Iraqis are dead now, for what??? Don't go preaching to me about anything Obama has done or not done, We're all still living with what Bush and Cheney did that has to be undone so we can move on.

Bush is gone... but Obama kept the two of the main policies you complain of... you just keep lying.. I thought you would want to know the truth. I don't hide from the truth.. nor do I not study and read what is happening. 

Do you trust the NYTimes?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/25/us/politics/25rendition.html

I trust very few.....and no I don't trust them either, especially when I'm not sure about the author.

What authors do you trust, Charlie ?  Name them now, quick, since you seem to be so knowledgable and research everything so well.

Eric are you saying that you dont believe all those things the Bush/Cheney admin advocated in the way of torture? ekyprogressive has posted many articles about the validity of it...and I also checked links about that young man...that is what I find so shocking.

Obama is carpet bombing... Now even in Pakistan... also, he kept Rendition intact!

anagin 4Bilss, Poppa Bush used Daisy cutters. Whats your point? We have been carpet bombing since the invasion of Normandy. That's how you do it for maximum effect. Why is this an issue with you? Bush had men raped in prison, men who were never charged with any crime. Where are your values and your moral compass? This is about hating a man you really know no truths about, only lies spread to you thru bad media. This is the second post you brought this up in, and it's not even close to whats being talked about. Go do some more research on Red States dot com.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/25/us/politics/25rendition.html

The article on the link you provided highlights the positive and negative aspects of President Obama's policy on rendition.

The negative side (because it would be preferable that they dont do it at all):

WASHINGTON — The Obama administration will continue the Bush administration’s practice of sending terrorism suspects to third countries for detention and interrogation, but pledges to closely monitor their treatment to ensure that they are not tortured, administration officials said Monday.

The Positive Side:

Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch said the new interrogation policy represented a significant step toward more humane treatment, though he expressed dismay that administration officials failed to impose stricter limits on rendition.

But he praised the Obama administration’s overall approach to difficult counterterrorism issues, saying the government had adopted “some of the most transparent rules against abuse of any democratic country.”

WASHINGTON — The Obama administration will continue the Bush administration’s practice of sending terrorism suspects to third countries for detention and interrogation, but pledges to closely monitor their treatment to ensure that they are not tortured, administration officials said Monday.

Human rights advocates condemned the decision, saying that continuing the practice, known as rendition, would still allow the transfer of prisoners to countries with a history of torture. They said that promises from other countries of humane treatment, called “diplomatic assurances,” were no protection against abuse.

“It is extremely disappointing that the Obama administration is continuing the Bush administration practice of relying on diplomatic assurances, which have been proven completely ineffective in preventing torture,” said Amrit Singh, a lawyer with the American Civil Liberties Union, who tracked rendition cases under President George W. Bush.

Let's hope for the best... but Rendition is Rendition.

LINK http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/25/us/politics/25rendition.html?_r=1

uuuummmmm...you forgot the POSITIVE side, but dont worry, I already did it.

I am wondering, did you support rendition during the Bush Administration? I'll borrow money and bet you didnt.

WAR is ugly... I can't watch anything with violence... But do I want to be protected from terrorist.. hell yes. 

If I knew a kidnapper had my child and was threatening to kill my child... I would dish out everything it took to find out where my child was... 

so yes, you supported rendition done by the Bush Administration but you are now speaking out against Obama's continuation of it? I dont understand.

Would you do anything to save your child? 

if I had one of course I would. I dont have any doubts whatsoever that you would too 4bliss....my question is...you supported rendition done by the Bush Administration but you are speaking out against Obama's continuation of it....I was just wondering why.

I don't want any body to do anything to anybody that is not in the absolute necessity to SAVE LIFE.

Where have I ever said that I was for it or against it with either Bush or Obama?

Re-read the post. 

I only pointed out that it continues under Obama... 

Seems the libs can only blame Bush for doing it... yet it continues under 0bama and it is swept under the rug.

oh okay...so the point you wanted to make is that it is being swept under the rug when it shouldnt be. But you do support Obama doing it to save lives..is this correct?

If it can save innocent lives.. yes.

The first responsibility of the President of the U.S. is to protect the Citizens. 

This, we agree on. The rendition thing...not so much. I dont like it at all and I would prefer Obama keep his word and stop it. But it is a tough call because obviously he feels the same way you do...he is doing what it takes to protect and save American lives.

But I have no answer for an alternative solution...I too would do anything to protect my child but I would prefer a whole different option if there was one available.

Thanks for your contribution to this debate 4bliss....I appreciate seeing things from your perspective also.

ok. So you really want to know what I think about this. Well here goes. Rendition is a necessary evil. On the other hand, he also has in there that the interrogation methods have to be reanalysed. So really, whats your point? Omaba is not having broom sticks pushed up the butts of men and boys, like your Bush did. Do I like remdition, no, not really. It's just like abortion, I don't like it either, but in some cases I can see it necessary.

Charlie... read my post... can we not move forward.. Bush is gone.. the mistakes where made... at least you say you understand that Obama is still doing rendition. 

so what is your point? Of course he is. It's you that wants to forget the criminal actions and brush them under the rug and make Obama looking like a bad guy? What is your point? That Obama has to make some hard decisions as President? No shit.

sometimes necessary evil is precisely that...necessary...but to further abuse a necessary evil is deplorable. If it needs to continue, the measures this administration put in place need to be enforced...until a better solution is achieved.

exactly

Actually Maria I thought about changing the "also wrong" part but I'd already posted.  As far as Bush/Cheney administration goes I found it completely objectionable from start to finish.