Atheists' 'hate' sign blasted in lawsuit

Are they really going to try to trump Free Speech with Freedom of Religion when the two are part of the same amendment. Ouch...That will be fun.

Actually, its the Earth's Axial Tilt ...

 Hi there eky,,and who made the earth and all we have and see,God:)

They just want to get rid of Christianity here,its that simple.For those that believe in God we can see and have seen his wonders..why cant they leave it alone..Peace:)Let all religions be I think of this as a Christian nation that accepts all and their religion too :)

Its a nation mostly composed of Christians, but it is not a christain nation. As for who made the earth, Check out a science book sometime, you will find out who really made the earth.

Oh eky,,I wish you did and hope one day you believe in God an how great he is :) Its Christian based but we accept all religions here,,but not the removal of our Christian religion for a muslim one..but dont get into that one.Have you watch Ben Steins documentary on God vs. Darwin its playing on HBO and is very good.Take care,,blessings to you :)

All religions are equal, and non-religion is equal according to the laws of the land.

No, I missed that one. I haven't watched Ben in anything since "win ben steins money"....LOL. I loved that show, it was like Jeopardy lite...LOL

Oh its a good documentary challenging Darwin catch it if you can eky..All we are saying is these atheists,and I have known some are just so ugly in their ways,we dont bother them so why do they need to bother us and our faith.They are thugs at times.  amd full of hate as are the ones I haved crossed paths with.Live and let live without the hate.

Actually, it was the religious ones bringing this to court. So who is "bothering" whom?

I will look for that show...I love "debate-umentaries"

eky, God created the people that wrote the science book. There are more unbelievers than believers. The Bible says narrow is the road to eternal life and few there be that find it. Most people follow the Devil's influence and Devils won't go to Heaven.

Religious people often go in circles. I recently gave a talk to children in primary school, let me show you how I taught them. I hope this makes it easier.

1: God exists.

2: God created everything

The first premise e.g "god exists" must be true, for the 2nd premise e.g "God created everything" to be true. What religious individuals tend to do is ignore the first premise and skip to number 2 e.g "god created everything".

So, within their minds they think the world around them is evidence for god, but they never truly question the existence of god which is the first premise.

It's why I view faith as a psychological disease.

-L

You really think that rose?  I have read more than one blog here that shows exactly how intolerant just blogster is.

"Hi there eky,,and who made the earth and all we have and see,God:)"

Rose, you speak of tolerence.  Apparently you are intolerant of MY GOD if you say yours made all that we see.

"It's why I view faith as a psychological disease."

Its starting to give me rash, and carpal tunnel...

@Feral: Fun post my man. Kudos!

eky, The Bible is much older than the science books and proven accurate with fulfilled prophecy. Many scientists admit that everything points to creation, not evolution. They just can't bring themselves to believe in God. Satan is alive and well. He indwells more people than God does.

I think that is your opinion and theirs.............

I thought it was "one nation under God", that doesn't mention who's God or what God, only God. So I take that as anyone's God. Not just the Christian God.

Yes Holly, everything we say is opinion (Belief). The Bible is truth, anything we say pro & con is our opinion.

Opinion reigns here, but there really is only one God that involves a Savior. The other gods are powerless.

no, this is not an opinion, there is only one God. He's the God of everyone. He just has different names by different people. In fact, I'm not really sure His name is God, it could be...Clyde or something. Maybe even Dave. But honestly, there is but one Supreme Being, over all.

Charlie, Well, you are half way to the truth by admitting there is a supreme intelligence. Now check in  the Bible and learn about him.

The vedas are older than that..............

man, you must have a short term memory loss thing going on. First, I have NEVER said that I did not believe in God. All I have ever said is that I don't believe in organized religion. I am the son of an Episcopal Priest. I have spent many, many days upon days in church and in Bible classes. I know about Him. We talk regularly.

Excuse me. I'm glad you are a Christian. I agree we have too much organization, but (Heb. 10:25)- Not forsaking the assembling and so much the more as you see the day approaching. Christians are to gather together for worship. That will take at least limited organizing.

actually, I like to have my time with Him by myself.

Just as long as it doesn't violate the establishment clause, which this would. If you look at Board of Education of Kiryas Joel Village School District v. Grumet you will note that the final ruling of this 1994 case was that " government should not prefer one religion to another, or religion to irreligion."

The later being what I see advocated here.

How is it hostile?

holly, Read the sign again. Atheists don't believe in angels and devils, so why did they mention it, but to speak against Christianity. Christiana are positive, Atheists are negative. We speak about what we believe, not about what we don't believe.

How is it hate speech? Because they do not agree wiht you?

Hollywould,

This is a definition of hate speech"--speech that attacks a person or group on the basis of race, religion, gender, or sexual orientation.

This statement IS an attack on religion.

"Religion is but myth and superstitution that hardens hearts and enslaves minds".

Was that just a simple "statement" or an "attack"? Because I believe it is an attack.

If I said, "Homosexuals degrade a society by perverting minds and defiling bodies", would that NOT be "hate speech"?

I think it is.

I know that it is a matter of "perception", and it remains to be seen how the court decides.

If I speak about you in a derogatory way, that is hate speech. If I express an opinion contrary to yours, it's an invitation to discussion, but it isn't hateful. A personal attack is hateful.

They are saying that don't as very clearly just as Christians are saying they believe in Jesus symbolically with the nativity scene. BTW the nativity IS a myth according to Christian scholars.

I do not believe ti is an attack, it is an opinion and no your statement would not be hate speech either.

So if someone disagrees with your sexual orientation or religion that disagreement is hate speech?

They did express an opinion  contrary to yours. That is their opinion. As far as they are concerned your hearts are hardened and but their definition, they are.

Holly,

It is NOT "speech", exactly, it's a written "sign".

I don't know how that impacts the law.

Should the "believers" now post a sign in retaliation stating that athiests "will burn in Hell" for their non-belief in a diety?

The whole thing, in my estimation, is an "in-your-face" attempt to hurt religion and believers.

It was unnecessary and confrontational.

I guess I grew up believing that civility is a necessary part of our society.

Athiests obviously didn't.

"Should the "believers" now post a sign in retaliation stating that atheists "will burn in Hell" for their non-belief in a Deity?"

Don't they?  Have you been to Georgia? The Churches have these big ugly signs that say lets see, homosexuals will burn in hell, no believers will die a fiery gnashing their  teeth death unless they are saved and on and on....I have seen them about porn as well as two movies the last temptation and The Divinci code.  this crap is on their signs for all the world to see and in tracts given out to children and who ever else will take them

Is this not less civil than that sign?

Sure, it is their own property but the whole world drives past it, is forced to read it.  Is it no less hate speech? Or would you say it is part of their philosophy so it is okay? I say both are okay.

Also, is that okay , the sign about porn that gets little sally to ask, "Mommy what is pornography?" Sorry that is too much for me.............

I would rather trust in the Bible for truth. Truth is eternal and so is God.

Heaven and Hell are Bible truths, but Christians shouldn't attack someone with threats. It is better to be positive and try to influence others.

It is NOT "speech", exactly, it's a written "sign".

No, if someone disagrees with me, it isn't hate speech, unless they pursue me for the purpose of attacking me, then it is hateful.

You would but someone who does not believe in your God or who does not believe at all could be and are offended.

That is not the point though.  Hate speech is the topic. Seems pretty hateful to me.

That is YOU interpretation of the Bible.  The people with those signs would tell you , you are wrong.

So did that sign persue you?  Really? It was hanging in one place.

You're right Holly, if that is the garbage that is posted on signs in GA. Then I could understand signs from athiests there.

I said several times here that we need to restore some civility in this country, and I mean BOTH sides.

But this sign was posted by a nativity, wasn't it?

Like I said. Confrontational.

They pursued Christianity, but like I said before, I wouldn't get upset about it myself, it just shows the difference between good & evil.

i posted a blog about this, partly about this but i can post that part here if you like

Sure Holly, help yourself.

Yes AJay hostile is the right and perfect word ,fits them.

A few give many a bad name.

I am still trying to see the "hostile"

They posted it by a Nativity scene for a purpose, confrontational.

Actually it was posted by the nativity scene because that was where they were told to put it.  The Nativity is a legend.  It is not real.

I think it's because of where the sign was posted.

What makes you think it is a legend Holly, Jesus is in secular history as well as the Bible. Josephus was a Historian at the time of Jesus. You ought to check out the Bible, only God can give History in advance. 

Holly, Check out Josephus.

http://www.josephus.org/testimonium.htm

okay now you:

Dr Rowan Williams has claimed there was little evidence that the Magi even existed and there was certainly nothing to prove there were three of them or that they were kings.

He said the only reference to the wise men from the East was in Matthew's gospel and the details were very vague.

Dr Williams said: "Matthew's gospel says they are astrologers, wise men, priests from somewhere outside the Roman Empire, that's all we're really told. It works quite well as legend."

The Archbishop went on to dispel other details of the Christmas story, adding that there were probably no asses or oxen in the stable.

He argued that Christmas cards which showed the Virgin Mary cradling the baby Jesus, flanked by shepherds and wise men, were misleading. As for the scenes that depicted snow falling in Bethlehem, the Archbishop said the chance of this was "very unlikely".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1573213/Archbishop-says-nativity-a-legend.html

that is just one of many and perhaps the least detailed

Why do you think it isn't? When you look at the nativy , youa re seeing something that never happened.

This is the nativy story:

The core story is of a newly-married couple travelling to Bethlehem for a tax census, a virgin mother giving birth in a stable, laying her swaddled child in a manger, the adoration of the Magi (or Three Wise Men) who were guided by a star in the East, an angry King Herod seeking to slaughter the new-born child, an exodus to Egypt, and an eventual return to the Holy Land.

http://shazgood.wordpress.com/2007/12/20/the-nativity-myth/

(fantastic link)

This is the facts:

http://www.blogster.com/mmmhollywould/whoa-the-nativity-myth

*First and foremost Jesus Christ was not born on December 25th .  It was a pagan holiday and not Yule either but more likely Sol Invictus that was merged with Christianity by Constantine the great.

You prefer the word of man, but I prefer the Word of God. Sometimes a person must use common sense. 

The Magi visited much later, maybe a year later. They lived in a house, not a stable. The Bible is truth, but people misinterpret.

Tell us about tolerance nota...Blog about It I would love to ....Oh wait, that's right...everything their way...

We tolerate Atheists, but they are always attacking Christianity. 

all they wanted to do was put up a sign............

It sounds like, to me, that they aew just expressing a differing opinion.

Exactly, but saying that is a violation. Because government is supposed to not just tolerate but accomidate religion apparently, and saying anything against it is just too much. Or suggesting not attributing everything in the world as "god made it that way" is OK when we know the answers (solstice and tilt, age of planet, whatever...)

A few outspoken ones do but for the most part they say nothing at all.

They wanted their sign shown, not just the Nativity.

Actually, that's alright with me, but if they put it there at that particular place because the Nativity was there, that appears to me as an attack. Hate speech.

That put it there BECAUSE the Nativity was there .  You have the right to express your beliefs and so do they.

Yes, I wouldn't have said anything. The best attitude is tolerance.

Cool :)

Why tolerate that which spreads intolerance? Ignorance? Hate? Impossibilities? Because it makes someone "feel better"? Awwwwww, such sweet sentiments to drive someone down the road of delusions and intellectual "roadblocks"...

What just happened, did you break into your spelling list this week...LOL.

Funny, I thought those protections were for the People (oh, that word again...) from the Government, not from signs posted by other people....

You have the right to believe it, we have the right to say it is "superstition" and mythology. Pretty simple I thought...

Don't go pissing off Helen Eky, she'll send God or Jesus after you....

Charlie, sarcasm will get you nowhere.

Have a belief that directly counters others, makes them hostile. We atheists are the most distrusted and disliked sector of society (Guess the peace/love of religion, excludes a few huh...). Wasn't that long ago conservatives were trying to use an archaic law to get an elected official thrown out of office because he was an atheist. But, shouldn't mention that here I suppose...

freeradical,

You're analogy of the security guard is spurious, especially to predicate it on religious tolerance or intolerance.

You'd best keep your intolerance to yourself.

Learn to get along.

I "tolerate your athieism".

It's your choice.

I have not proselytized my religion in any way.

Rather, I have tried to point out that TOLERANCE goes both ways.

"The United States Supreme Court has specifically held, for instance, that the Constitution affirmatively mandates accommodation, not merely tolerance, of all religions, and forbids hostility toward any …"

Keep ignoring the rest of the establishment clause. No religion is on equal ground as religion as far as speech is concerned.

This lawsuit, an attack on free speech of Athiests, shows religious intolerance of skeptical beliefs or other beliefs. This sign "open hositility" oh please...

Good comment AJ.

Hmmm, Strange Ajay. You make an interesting proposition. 

"and forbids hostility toward any …""

Strange, I dislike religious individuals because they always want it their way. How's this. Take down every sign that has the word "God" written in, and I as an Atheist promise to start a campaign that will take down every sign that says "Religion is false" and "God doesn't exist".

You see, your right. It does go both ways, unfortunately religious individuals don't understand this. So I'm not really surprised. From a legal perspective, it's obvious there is a problem when it comes to free speech and to criticise religion. I wonder who will win, free speech? or religion?. If religion wins, the united states goes further into the dark hole it has already dug itself. If free speech wins, then the slow eradication of faith and religion will seem more prevalent and obvious.

-L

Every church sermon has open hostility to all whoa re not Christian

You'd best keep your intolerance to yourself.

I disagee.  Why should I tolerate the child abuser?  Or the murderer?  Or the rapist?  Or Bernie Madoff's?  Or the Adolf Hitler's?  Or the Pope Pious XII's?   Were is the morality in that? 

Exactly...

Oh, so once again I see athiests trying to rewrite the Constitution. Re-do Supreme Court decisions.

Twist the law to support their agenda.

Why am I not surprised?

And it does go both ways.

I am NOT offended by your athiesm.

That's YOUR right.

But you are not allowed to

"The United States Supreme Court has specifically held, for instance, that the Constitution affirmatively mandates accommodation, not merely tolerance, of all religions, and forbids hostility toward any religion.

Oh, and by the way, is Athieism a religion?

Because if it isn't, it isn't protected by the Constitution.

But you ARE offended by religion and you once again try to take your dislike one step too far by

stepping on religion and it's Constitutional protection.

Well, even from a standing point of law, America will need to change something now wouldn't it ^_^ Free speech and keeping religion from criticism will simply not work.

Good luck.

-L

Who suggested that you tolerate lawbreakers, Crucify?

I sure didn't.

It is just as protected, as I have already pointed out and told you where to look.

Fickle and meaningless lawsuits...

OH MY GOD!? Your a Homosexual Gay Progressive Atheist? Is it because you eat Soy beans? ohhh, I feel soooo dirty.........

And 1/8th native american...

Good Lord, and I call myself your friend!!!

And I repeat, as long as it doesn't violate the establishment clause or Religion does not supercede Non-religious beliefs.

Half truths help no one AJay...

And lets not forget, it is the religious bringing lawsuit against FFRF in this case. So much for tolerance...LOL

Their rights have been blatantly violated, Ekyprogressive.

One thing you need to learn is that "tolerance" sometimes requires you to keep your mouth shut.

Ekyprogressive,

Who is "superceding non-religious beliefs"?

I see non-religious beliefs being INTOLERANT of religious beliefs.

Very pointedly, too.

Aren't you just blindly arguing to argue?

Mine are being violated if it is taken down. What a situation...

Ekyprogressive,

Oh, your "right" to spout "hate speech" and intolerance" of religion?

Like I said, sometimes it is better to keep your mouth shut.

Especially if you are violating someone elses rights.

If I uttered racist remarks or anti-gay remarks, wouldn't I be violating YOUR RIGHTS?

There used to be civility in this country.

You seem to have forgotten  that.

Once again Ajay you seem to be delving into realms of free speech and hate crime.

Shouting racist remarks = Hate speech.

Saying the obvious e.g religion is false or god does not exist counts as free speech.

Sayings "all christians are scum" is hate speech.

Saying "all christians are deluded" is free speech.

Try to establish between the two. If saying "there is no god and religion is false" somehow attacks your faith or beliefs, then I'd reccomend evaluating just how weak it is.

-L

My right to say that it is superstition yes, that is part of my personal freedom of speech. Exorcizing my speech, or the speech of those who pitched in to put that sign up has nothing to do with your rights to practice said superstition. This message and religious message are of equal weight within the law. This will be tossed...

.My initial points regarded not finding it "hateful", the equality of the speech of those who put the sign up being comparable to religion. That is hateful? This sign was Hateful?

Enough for a frivoulous lawsuit?

So because an Aithiest said publically he does not agree with you  he has attacked you?

Wow, that explains a lot.

If you were in buisness and advertizing your product, and I went to all your ads and made known my opinion that your product was worthless, that would be an attack, hate speech.

That is not an attack..............wow republicans crying about hate speech...........silencing the non-believers.

Holly, If I went to your sex blog and started preaching, would you tolerate it? I'm sure I would be unwelcome, or would you practice tolerance?

Honestly I am not sure why a group of athiests would want to publish their views in a public building.  It seams to blur the seperation of church and state line.  But, given that apparently religious views are allowed in the building, we do have a basic philosophical quandry.

Some religions are against athiesm.  And if these religions are espousing their views in the building, then are espousing a negative view of athiesm.  

Lets paraphrase it this way.  "My religion beliefs are right.  And my religious beliefs say that in bible verse such and such, nonbelievers should be killed."

The athiests go in the same building and say "My religion says science is right and no creed is necessary.  And the other religion is using their creed to enslave people's minds."  

Which one is being intolerant?  Well they both are being intolerant.  No question.  The real question is whose intolerance is justified or not.  Isn't the bible believer who holds the beleif that all non believers should be killed?  Or is it the atheist that says creed enslaves the mind of man?

Actually, you are wrong.  Atheism is NOT anti-religion it is "without god"

It is anti-religion if they intentionally try to counteract or obstruct a religious teaching. We don't follow the Atheists to counter what they say, using a social network excluded because that is what we do here. Without opposing comments we wouldn't have a network.

I know of no "Bible believer", as you put it, that believes in killing non-believers.
Where do you get this crap?

How about the inquisition???

But in more recent times, its part of the extreme fundamentalist movement.

Pat Robertson, the leader of the Christian Coalition and the 700 club, said the following

It is interesting, that termites don't build things, and the great builders of our nation almost to a man have been Christians, because Christians have the desire to build something. He is motivated by love of man and God, so he builds. The people who have come into our institutions today are primarily termites. They are into destroying institutions that have been built by Christians, whether it is universities, governments, our own traditions, that we have.... The termites are in charge now, and that is not the way it ought to be, and the time has arrived for a godly fumigation.
Pat Robertson, New York Magazine,  August 18, 1988.

Trust me.  The kind of philosophy I am talking about lives on in the deeply conservative religions.  After all, the Catholic Church has yet to admit it was ever wrong for the atrocities it commited.

And if religions like Catholicism can't admit that they have done anything wrong in the past, what is there to stop them from doing it again in the future if given the oppurtunity?

Give me a break.

Murdering and inquisition?

NOW?

Where do YOU live?

Not on this planet.

Wasn't Tiller killed by a right wing fundy...

Ekyprogressive,

Oh, so by that argument, anything a single, lone atheist does automatically condemns all Christians, right?

He didn't kill for his "religion", he killed a man who aborted 60,000 babies whom he considered to be a murderer.

And if you use one lone extremist to support your argument, you just lost.

No I don't have to use that one man. I could just ask when you plan to move into that Whale condo...

You know, in nursing school they taught us that if people "talked to god", get a psych consult...

Hum, well now that Christianity is watered down, no you wouldn't.

You are right, Christianity is watered down. This fulfils prophecy in the Bible, God does know the future. (1 Tim.4:1)- Now the Spirit speaks that in  the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of Devils./ This is the latter times, not many real Christians left. Jesus said the Way is narrow, and not many find it. They are following the broad Way that leads to destruction.

Really? When did they start teaching that?  I was in EMT training in the late 70's and in nursing school in the early 80's.  I also worked at one of our hospitals during that same time period and was around many patients who were dying.  They talked about God and going home to heaven.  None of my teachers, nursing supervisors, or books taught us that.  Isn't that being biased towards the atheist belief to teach this way? 

Sorry you apparently missed that day of class, I have enjoyed the company of Jesus himself, three of them, one was a woman but heck, when its all mythology, why be sexist, right?

If someone made the claims made today, or wrote the claims made there today and told you they were fact you would have them committed.

Unless it happened 2000 years ago, then ya call it real.

Correction, around 3000 years ago, longer if you count the clone/gods that actually occured BEFORE. From Egypt to India, all and all I am thinking around 50 gods before, all crucified, resurrected in 3 days, raise the dead, heal the sick wise men, 12 deciples, yada yada yada, same story, fresher version.

Like batman of the 60s and batman today.

I don't think so because like I said I worked in the hospital and it was the same hospital that students trained in.  I believe it had to do with the time period.  I think things have changed.  There was neutrality from the teachers and nursing supervisors when I was there.  None of my patients ever claimed to be God or Jesus.  There were those who talked to me about him and I would listen to them.  They knew they were dying and it gave them comfort to have someone listen.  Most especially those that didn't have any family.    Well that is how it was when I was in college and working at the hospital.  I realize you were probably just in kindergarten or first grade during that time.

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.   (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.

    1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him.  Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.  You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.  And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.   (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

More wierd ones here ...

There you are...in the Old Testament again.........

Lets not forget that some Christian sects continue to beleive every single verse in the bible is true.  I remember reading about a Kansas group that was mad at their school board that they were teaching kids that Pi wasn't 3.0 and the world was round! lol

Just because you don't believe every passage in the bible, it doesn't mean that others do not.

So where have Christians been killing a lot of Athiests lately, Ekyprogressive?

Or stoning them?

I hear about Muslim intolerance of Christians all the time.

Murders of Christians is practiced by Muslims  in the Middle east and in Europe right now.

Is that what emboldens athiests to hate Christianity?

Is it that the Muslims practice their hatred that makes Athiests think that they can get away with the same thing in this country?

To try to squelch Christians' free speech?

Athiests can choose to believe or not believe in a diety.

But they can't take away MY right to believe.

They can't even step on my right to believe.

It is protected.

Now athiesm, is it a "religion"?

Believe if you want to, Atheists will continue to defend reality.

free...r...  I DO believe every word in the Bible.  If God told the Israelites to do this that or the other then they were to do it.  Why did God tell them to do the things listed in the first 5 books of the Bible?  It would take a whole other book to explain it.  Quickly... the first 5 books are the "Law of God" to Israel.  If a person broke even 1 of God's Laws then they were considered to be guilty of the breaking of ALL of the Law.   The only attonement for breaking God's Law (or sin) was the blood sacrifice of animals.  Why don't we have animal sacrifices today?  Because Jesus, born of a Virgin and therefore not subject to Adam's original sin, was the only perfect man to ever live. (never sinned) He was born of God's Holy Spirit and was, in fact, God in the form of a man.  He was crucified to antone for everyone's sin.  One time for all of mankind.  He died for those who would believe and even those who would never believe.  Those who believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and that Jesus death was the attonement for their sin and that Christ rose from the dead on the third day will have "life" in the next life.  Those who refuse to believe will have eternal death.   It is not up to me to say who has life and who has death after this life is over.  That is up to God only.  Believe it or don't.  The choice is entirely up to you.  Anyway, that is why we don't stone people or any of that other "stuff" in the Old Testament.  We live under the Grace of God through Jesus Christ and not under the Law of the Old Testament.  I have often had unbelieving people try to apply Old Testament Bible verses to Christian principles.  They just end up taking it all out of context.

I did not go into detail when I said above that the Bible says nothing about unbelievers being killed.  I should have explained that I meant Christians in the New Testament.  Christians do not believe in killing unbelievers.  Jesus did not teach it.  He taught just the opposite.  Jesus taught us to love not hate.  When you see a "christian" group spouting hate, they are not Christian at all.  I hope that makes my quick and incomplete statement much more clear.  My bad........

One of the biggest problems I have found with atheism is: to know for absolute certainty there is no God, you would have to BE God.  So when
an atheist says there is no God they are claiming to BE God themselves...which kinda messes up their entire argument that
there is no God.

Peace.......

I am sorry but I am not sure how I can believe your argument. The Catholic Church believed in both the Old and the New Testament and yet they caused the inquisition.  The Holocaust and Jasovenac were also influenced by Christian beliefs.  And the people whom said the Jew was the cause of Germany’s problems also believed in both the New and the Old testaments.

The vast majority of Christians  living today may not be believe in the killing non believers is moral, but the change in belief was NOT because of the bible. It occured, in all likelihood, as a part of the after effects from the Holocaust.  After that event, everyone understood what could happen if people are not respected for what they believe in. 

In the past, the bible has been used to support slavery. Nowadays Christians use the bible to prevent homosexuals from getting married, conveniently ommitting the fact that Jefforson Davis had made the same argument.  I find this type of logic to be deeply disturbing to me. I don't see why we should be preventing people whom care for each other the rights they deserve because of a book which has also been used to support slavery in the past.

One of the reason’s I do tend to be critical of Christianity is I see how it is being used by others to do things like spread hate towards things like homosexuals and nonbelievers.  And I don’t want this.  I want people to become unified to a common purpose.  A common moral code that is universal to all of mankind.

Now on to another point.

One of the biggest problems I have found with atheism is: to know for absolute certainty there is no God, you would have to BE God.

This is a common misconception.  The two routes of atheism are (a) and and (thiesm).

 A means a lack of. For example, someone who is ammoral is someone whom lacks morals. 

Theism means beliefs about God.  Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are all theistic religions because they all have beleifs about the nature of God.

(A) (theism) therefore doesn’t mean ‘there is no God.’   Rather what it means is they lack any beliefs ABOUT God.   God could exist or he couldn’t.  They are not sure.

Now as for my own personal beliefs about “God.” , my beleifs can be described as “God is choas personifed.”  What I mean by this, is that I believe there is a chaotic equation that is the cause of everything.  Essentially, if we ever solve the Theory of Everything, then we would have found my “God.”   I am probably in the minority of atheists with this view.

Beyond this, I also have beleifs about the Christian version of God.  Basically I don’t beleive an ominiscient, omnipotent, and benevelant God is logically permissable.  I know this goes directly against Christian beliefs but this belief should still be respected because it is something I hold as a part of my religious outlook.

I hope this clears up my perspective as well.

Take care.

Free Radical.

You never mentioned Satan and his influence on people, Believers and non-believers alike. Just because someone or some church say they are Christians don't make it so. Christianity is a personal relationship with God through Jesus. We know about the Inquisition and much evil done in the name of religion. Wnen we as individuals are judged by God, it will be as an individual. What did you do about Jesus, who is the personification of God. I read God's word, the Bible and study it. You should check it out personally and not go by hearsay. During our existence on earth in our lifetime, we are deciding our eternal destination. Jesus will be the Judge. If you harden your heart and reject God, you can't blame anyone but yourself. How do I know that the Bible is God's Word? There were 40 writers of 66 Books (39-OT,  27-NT) over a period of 1,500 years. There is no proved discrepancy, only misinterpretations. God is the author of the Bible. All scripture is given by inspiration of God. There are about 2,500 prophecies in the Bible (History in advance), approx. 2,000 were fulfilled exactly 100% correct. The rest will be too. It won't be long now untill the Christians will dissapear from the earth (Rapture of the Saints), The Antichrist will rule from the EU. (America is now going down & EU is coming up.) There will be 7 yrs he will rule, first as a man of peace (I think he will be the next Pope), then Satan will enter him resulting in the Battle of Armageddon (WW 3). The Saints will have their eternal bodies and return to earth with Jesus. Ungodly people will perish and there will be a millennium of peace on earth, Jesus reigning with a rod of iron (He will allow no evil). God has an eternity of greatest pleasure for us, but the unsaved can look forward to an eternity in the Lake of Fire (The body will burn up, but the spirit, the mind, lives on). We as individuals choose now which way we are going. The Bible is where the truth is, read it for yourself, don't follow the crowd to Hell.

 PS: I appreciate your inquiry, without hate.

I don't ever mean to be hateful per say although I know sometimes it comes across that way.  My main purpose is to get people to believe in the natural world and to have people come to a consensus as to what beliefs are necessary for us to make the world a better place.

You made note about how I didn't mention Satan and I most certainly omitted his name.  The reason for omission has to do with the fact that I don't believe in him any more than I believe in an omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent God.  I believe the world is a place of human motives and human frailties. 

I appreciate your concern for my soul but its not necessary.  I already know where I am heading.  (Earthworms, if you are listening, be gentle.  Ok?)

Take care,

Free Radical

If a supreme intelligence (God) didn't create all living, who did. It takes a lot of faith to believe it came about by accident (Evolution).

free...r.  The Inquisition was evil.  Led by men in a quest for power and they were wrong.  Much of what the so called Church did during the Dark Ages was also wrong.  Many evil things have been done in the name of religion.  It doesn't mean their acts were part of the true Christian Church.

I personally believe Hitler was demon possessed.  The true Church was not behind the holocaust.  Hitler's "SS" was a cult.  I am an ARDENT student of WWII and the holocaust.  Hitler had been planning the extermination of the Jews since just after WWI ended.  He had been spreading his anti-semitic views for years while "preaching" national socialism.  That had nothing to do with the Church.  There were many Catholic priests who opposed Hitler and they were "eliminated".  There were other priests who helped many Nazi's escape to South America after the war.  I'll never understand that one.  Sick people (in the head ..  imo).

Those who use Christianity to spread hate toward ANYONE is wrong.  Jesus did not teach hatred toward any person or group.  Again, if someone  is spreading hate and saying they are using the Bible as a guide, they are either lying or just using the Bible as an excuse for their own personal hatred.  Many people have twisted the words of the Bible to their own evil purposes.

You want a common moral code universal to all mankind.  Ok...who gets to decide what constitutes "moral" and immoral?  Me?  You?  There are still people on the planet who live by what are considered by most to be "primitive" lifestyles.  Do we use their "code"?  Do we use the "moral" code of the Taliban in Afghanistan?  Or, perhaps the tribes in the Amazon jungle.  Your common universal moral code is not possible in this life.  If you want universal harmony you will have to follow Christ into eternal life.

What would a world look like with everyone doing whatever THEY believed was right?  To one person, killing someone over stealing vegetables out of the garden is justified but to another, killing is NEVER justified for any reason.  Chaos would be the norm.

I still stand behind what I said pertaining to being an atheist.  A person would have to BE God to know for a fact there is no God.  The evidence in favor of God's existence permeates the natural world.  Just look at the incredible design throughout all of nature!!  It's totally amazing!!  You would stand a better chance of winning every lottery in the country in the same night than for the earth and the life upon it to have happened by "accident".

I understand that you are a very logical person.  If you knew what I do for a living you would understand that I am much more logically minded than most people.  But, that is the whole jist of it all... The Bible says, Ephesians 2:8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,    See.  Faith is not logical and eternal life is a free gift from God.

Actually atheism is an "unbelief" in God.  An agnostic says it is impossible to prove or disprove God exists.

Also.  I agree with what feral said...but you probably already knew that

So, thank you for letting me present my side without yelling, screaming, ridiculing, condemning, etc.

Nice to find someone who can have a decent discussion.

Actually atheism is an "unbelief" in God.  An agnostic says it is impossible to prove or disprove God exists.

Agnostic means lack of knowledge about God.  Atheism means a lack of theistic belief about God.  So I am technically both an agnostic and an atheist.  Weird, huh? 

These words are a major issue among athiests / agnostics themselves.  There is a movement within the group to change from the 'agnositc' vs. 'athiest' way of viewing things to "weak vs. strong athiesm'.

A weak atheist would be someone like a baby whom dies at childbirth.  There is no way for them to have formed beliefs about God so they would be 'atheist' by default.  Or so some theologians claim.  I don't really have a view on the matter.  People whom we now consider to be agnostics would be defined as weak atheists under this system.

A strong atheist would be someone such as myself whom claims certain versions of God can't exist (the whole omnipotent / benevolent thing again).  

What most strong atheists will say is that they have logical reason to believe the Christian vesion of God doesn't exist.  Or the Hindu version of God doesn't exist. etc. etc.  I personally don't know of any stong atheist whom claims for sure that the Deist version of God doesn't exist.  Making such a claim would go beyond logic.  That is not to say such strong atheists don't exist.  They might.  But they are defiinitely in the minority of strong atheists.

My point with the Holocaust was that I feel Hitler capitalized on beliefs perpetuated by religion.  If the Catholic Church hadn't been highly anti-semitic in the past, then Hitler wouldn't have been able to galvanize people against the Jew.  Hitler capitalized on a system of bigotry that was already in place. 

You want a common moral code universal to all mankind.  Ok...who gets to decide what constitutes "moral" and immoral?

Check out my post for my views on morality if your interested in that topic.

http://www.blogster.com/freeradical/an-athiests-definition-of-morality

I do try to present my views as rationally as possible (although I do have a nasty tendency to resort to sarcasm on occasion. lol)  I am glad you can appreciate that. 

Like I said.........Christianity is watered down, or they would be.

They did put up their sign, the Chritians. they put up the nativity scene.

Joe---EY

Joey loves me, cant you tell...

I'll answer you Raggedy.

It's because Atheists don't want another period known as the "dark ages". The delusions of a person in the privacy of their home is well and fine, but when it begins to permeate into politics and make an effect on public policy. Then religion itself should be eradicated.

Some people tend to see the hatred of one religion against another as "good vs evil" I see it as a fight between two evils. 

Theists have lost the battle already in rationalising their claims for believing in a deity. This has been known for many, many years. Only thing they have is their special rights to protect their delusions because they are precious to them. Now that it's being taken away, I only see the theists crying.

-L

The Dark Ages....ROTFLMBO!

Calling my religion "delusions" is hate-speech.

Go ahead and "practice" your athieism.

I don't particularly care.

Just leave my religion out of your "practice".

Hmm but it is a delusion at best. Have you never visited my blog? I reccomend you do before claiming that it isn't. 

Atheism is a religion as baldness is a hair colour. I'm simply stating thre truth that religion is false, dogmatic and produces more evil than good in more ways than one.

Hate speech, is usually concerning negative opinions against a person. Unfortunately for you, god is not a person, nor is christianity.

So, now watch me practice my free speech here..... Ready?

Christianity is a load of crap.

-L

Your opinion is a load of crap, crucify.

But you have a right to that particular load of crap.

Hmm opinion?

Last I remember, an opinion based on evidence becomes a fact.

Thus, "Christianity is a load of crap" is a fact.

-L

I could ask you the same thing and I am not an atheist. I just do not believe in your God.

Is mythology a better word for it then?  Is calling Christianity mythology hate speech?

Crucify, No, you are expressing your opinion, but if you went into a Christian Church and said that from the Pulpit, it would be hate speech. That would be Seek & Destroy.

Crucify, Our Court System proves that is not true about opinion based on fact. Their opinion is often wrong.

True, but that's American courts for ya :D

-L

Reason! Thank you!!!!

He always has

khakicat,

They are allowed to advertise their athieism.

They are NOT allowed to claim that religion "hardens hearts or enslaves minds".

That is "hate-speech".

I don't believe I have a "hard heart", and I find that kind of rhetoric offensive. I do not have an "enslaved mind" either, just because I believe in God or Jesus Christ.

My right to those beliefs is protected.

I have the right to practice my beliefs with out fear of hostility and intolerance.

Sigh, I take pleasure in making religious individuals seem foolish. Now look, I'm only going to do this once, and once only. 

"The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God, they are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good" (Ps. 14: 1)."

OMG BIBLE IS SAYING THAT ONLY FOOLS SAY THERE IS NO GOD. HATE SPEECH HATE SPEECH! BAN THE BOOK!

-L

crucify,

I didn't write the Bible.

NO ONE FORCES YOU TO READ THE BIBLE, now do they?

So take your spurious, specious argument elsewhere.

It doen't fly here.

Your right, no one forces you to read a notice either. Ignore it, and move on.

-L

"A Notice"?

It's hate-speech.

the Bible isn't plastered out in the open where you can't help but read it.

The sign is.

khakicat,

What the athiests "believe" is that they can impose their "non-belief" on everyone, whether we like it or not.

They don't respect others.

Khakicat...10 commandments at courthouses...so should this. Right? Fair is fair ans speech is equal. And yes, you do see religious doctrine everywhere, including government areas.

Religion has been "imposed" on people since the start. You are upset the other view simply says their piece. Corrects ridiculous assumptions of creationism or other illogical non-sense. Come on...

P.S. You still rambling on this?

ekyprogressive,

No one has "imposed" anything on you.

You "correct" nothing.

Your "view" is that of a tiny minority in this world.

A mere 2.5 percent.

Pissing in the wind.

It's imposed on me every day of my life AJ. If you have constitutional amendments making you a second class citizen because of justifications that boil down to religious traditions, then you would understand.

2.5%? Try 16% , third place to Christianity and Islam....And growing...

True, but like I said before, you guys put up your signs, and we'll put up ours. Neither is hurting anything.

You have NEVER been a second-class citizen, Ekyprogressive. Try a third world nation or a Muslim Nation before you go whining here. Our standard of living exceeds any other nation on earth.

Even our poor have more material possessions than anywhere else. They are RICH comparatively speaking, to the rest of the world.

If you are talking "gay rights", suck it up. Look at what blacks came from. Slavery. 150 years ago.

All changes in societies take time.

After all, you have the choice to BE gay, live gay, and OPENLY be gay. Life is choices, and you made yours. Nobody made it for you.

A little advice:

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.
Amen.

You can take God out of it if you wish, it still means the same thing.

If we discount people who simply don't PRACTICE any religion, no, you're wrong.

Actual athiests, 2.5%.

This nation is predominently Christian.

Have you ever heard the saying "There are no athiests in foxholes"?

My guess, if put to the stress test, most do look to a higher power, whether YOU want to believe it or not.

I do not have the same rights as other citizens here, and so yea, that is a second class citizen. Is it worse in other nations, sure, is it better in some nations, "You Betcha", at least in that specific regard. But that is just one example of how religious beliefs and traditions influence our government and justify discrimination.

And Human sexuality is not a "choice". I would imagine you could not "change", and the thoughts would not be one you would want to consider. It is the same, in my mind. And even if it WAS which the jury is not out on, I should still have that right, and the right to marry whom I chose, and I shouldn't lose said right just to make the superstitious "feel better". Yes, I have heard that phrase, the theme of "scaring" people into believing is common.

AS for the founders you mention below, I have pointed to a few already who had a "skeptical eye" about religion, there were in fact several who felt that way. But regardless their personal feelings, they knew to not put religion in the constitution. And that was for a reason that really benefits everyone...

Ekyprogressive,

Let's put it this way.

Using our CONSTITUTION, how are YOU a second class citizen?

What right, according to our CONSTITUTION, or the amendments, do you NOT actually have?

That is neither hostilely nor intolerance.

lololololol

Just as Christians impose theirs on others.

Do you really believe the legal precident behind this (the protection of their faith on state property, this was a courthouse as I understand it, over the freedom to criticize actually all faiths) from a legal standpoint is wise?

I don't think it holds water, and amounts to a costly,tossed-out lawsuit.

Thank you gregbarlow!

The difference to me boils down to the fact that I believe athiests have the RIGHT to BE athiests.

I don't cast aspersions, speak hatefully, or throw stones.

But athiests don't want me to have the right to BE Christian or enjoy my beliefs.

Athiests think they have the right to speak "hatefully" about religion.

They do NOT.

And as you say, they do not accept the possibility that they are wrong.

Hey Greg, me and you disagree on seldom things and I think this is one of them.

The existence of a god is not necessarily a nice theory, it's a hypothesis. Similar to the existence of unicorns, Hobbits,Thor,Isis,Zeus etc. You are an Atheist to these gods (I hope) I simply go one god further than the rest of them. 

The aspect of "prove it" for "there is no god" and "there is a god" is similar to the issue of whether there are unicorns. It is impossible to disprove the assertion that unicorns exist, as it is to prove that they exist. But the process of claiming unicorns exist stays out of our academic areas for a reason. If something does not exist from the start, it's impossible to disprove it.

A hypothesis that can neither be proven right nor wrong, is a useless hypothesis.

I don't deny the possibility of there being an alternative. I think to deny or not accept such a thing would be delving into realms of certainty. What I would say is, that it is not "likely" that super natural entities exist, just as it's "unlikely" that unicorns exist.

Evidence leads to truth.

Dogma leads to lies.

-L

Gregbarlow,

The Democrats showed Bush with a swastica. That doesn't make it "right" or "wrong".

Our free speech allows this.

But most politicians are about the farthest thing from religion or religious practices.

LMBO!

Some democrats did, just like some tea partiers have shown holocaust imagry and Obama as an african witch doctor with a bow through his nose. Do you want to play "full acceptance and responsibility" for all parts of your party, or just point fingers and blame it all on the whole of the opposition?

ekyprogressive,

There you go deflecting again and changing the purpose and intent of this post.

Oh well.....

Who changed topics? read above...

Ahhh, the old "they are just sinners wanting to play" theory. Yes the simple minded would think as such...

P.S.

Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.
-- Thomas Jefferson , Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

Even Jefferson thought they were dolts...

I know it will give great offense to the clergy, but the advocate of religious freedom is to expect neither peace nor forgiveness from them.
-- Thomas Jefferson , to Levi Lincoln, 1802. ME 10:305

Ekyprogress,

Oh, so athiests have "clean hands"?

You think YOUR intolerance doesn't make YOU a hippocrite?

You would take away a person's right to their religion, because you don't "like" it?

You think YOUR way is the only way so you would force it on all.

Hippocrite.

What you call intolerance, we call a defense of reality. Of course, you can believe in talking snakes and living in Whales all you want to. Some find that laughable, and you will have to accept those consequences for your beliefs. Just as Atheists have to accept a bum rap because people are so intolerant of having their beliefs challenged, they would sue over a sign.

I never said I would take their right to religion, and it has nothing to do with 'like' it has to do with logic.

Hmm? Are they still going on about how Atheists are taking away their rights to be deluded?

Thought that was sorted. A person can believe and do what they wish in the comfort of their own home. Practicing witch craft? Satanism? Etc etc is all good. But the problem arises when this sickness permeates the public and foremost, reality. No religion deserves respect, no point of view deserves respect.

Each can be criticised, each can be stated as being good or bad, true or false.

-L

ekyprogressive,

Is it "logical" to interfere with other people's religious beliefs?

No.

And further, I don't have to "justify" my belief to you.

I don't have to identify my exact beliefs, which religion, or any part of my faith to you.

I do find that athiests try to force their opinions on other people more than any other people I have ever known.

Athiests need to learn tolerance.

Athiests need to learn respect for others rights.

This sign interferes with others beliefs? Then perhaps like Crucify said, you need to examine how fragile they really are. You know it doesn't, and this lawsuit is frivolous.

Religion is forced down our throats every day. People try and intertwine it in our politics. As long as they do that, it is and should be fair game. And it will be...

ekyprogressive,

Just HOW is religion "forced down YOUR throat" every day?

(Now that's funny).

It seems to me that you just keep involving yourself with religion by your arguing incessantly about it.

FYI, religion was inextricably intertwined in our Constitution from the inception of this nation.

For reasons you will obviously NEVER understand.

You have, however, THE CHOICE to take it or leave it.

I suggest that you quit talking about it.

I also suggest that you learn respect and tolerance for other people.

God was never once mentioned in the Constitution, except to denote the date as "year of the lord" or some such (they always talked with a dramatic flare). One of our first documents as an infant nation was the Treaty of Tripoli in 1797 , which stated so clearly you can understand in article 11....

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion ,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Signed John Adams President of the United States. Ratified by Congress.

As I said to someone else earlier, we are a nation with many Christians, but we are NOT a Christian nation. Nor shall we EVER be....

I look to WHO wrote the Constitution and why they constructed it as they did.

Read up on the framers of the Constitution and study their lives and their histories. They left a church-DOMINATED state to form a new country.

Their intent is something you don't even consider.

I find you to be so "literal" that you fail to understand intent.

Too bad. You're a smart guy.

Who were they inciting? Exactly?

Well...who would you think an athiest would  incite?  Rather than simply state their belief..or lack of...they felt the need to smash mouth any and all religions.

"Religion is but myth & superstition. That hardens hearts & enslaves minds."

 They would have been cool until they added that and why do you think they did?

Satan has always been against God, since he became a fallen angel. His followers follow his lead. 

The law says EQUAL...

Difference in my non belief of unicorns and your daughter's non belief in dodos is a the fact dodos can be shown to have existed with evidence. Unicorns can not.

-L

We may be 'tyrannical' in our pursuit of justice, but at least we are not hypocrites.

I am sorry.  That last reply came off a little strong.  I was a little peeved as I really don't care for this notion that atheists most be without morality.  I feel morality is universal to us all.  Christians and atheists alike can share in its pursuit. 

I have tried to explain my logic concerning morality in the following link.  It is what I happen to believe.  So if you are interested in the topic, I am more than willing to discuss it with you on that page.  I will promise to tone down the rhetoric as I am actually hoping to pursuade people to the belief that no one religion can claim 'morality'.  Christians, Muslims, atheists, and any number of other religions can lay claim to this social ideal.

http://www.blogster.com/freeradical/an-athiests-definition-of-morality

I am not an atheist.

Are you a believer, keeping in mind that believers read God's Word and obey it. But, we can pray and get forgiveness for sin as we repent. Jesus is the Judge.

Neo, thanks for your comment. I had the Bridge movie & lost it, glad to have it back. It parallels God sacrificing his Son for us. Concerning your last statement. I don't necessarily agree with the implication. (2 Tim. 2:15)- we are to study to know and rightly divide the Word of truth. Everyone doesn't do that. If I come across a teaching opportunity, I will express my belief (Opinion) in hopes of helping another to understand, but I will listen to them also. That's how we learn. I will be persistent in studying the Bible and getting the word out. All of us should do that. To them who see that I often repeat myself, it is with a different person. (1 John 4:1 )- There are many false prophets in the world leading the gullible to Hell. We, as Christians, are God's voice. We need to be available. I welcome criticism of my belief, it leads to a discussion. If anyone believes differently, they must back it up with God's Word. Thanks again for your comment.

Thank you Feral! Forgive this second post beyond that which I said would be my last, but your comment deserves a reply. For the sake of brevity, I've gotten myself into a lot of trouble with that "last statement." I would in no way accuse you of arguing unreasonably. To the contrary, I think your posts and comments are very appropriate, and I laud your dedication to dividing the Word, and I commend your teaching. What I was attempting to politely reference was the kind of endless contentious behavior as demonstrated by another in this post. I would guess that person posted 40 or more comments to your readers, and none of those were reasonable or accurate in my view. In the blogosphere, I consider such conduct as trolling, and have long since ignored that type of blogger. However, in this case, it coincided with the atheist vs theist view, and I only wanted to point out there are zealots on both sides, and to imply that neither help their cause. Anyway Feral, thanks again for a great thread, and keep up the good work!

If you are referring to either me or crucify or Holly, Then by all means say so directly. Pay attention to the "replies" though, and consider too there really are just a handful of "lefties" on this site.

And if you have any issues with my reason (and I am sure theirs as well), you can say so anytime, day or night. I am always more than happy to discuss them directly.

I have found that some are incapable of being direct

Thank you very much Greg. Perhaps we are closer to 100% than you realize... I abbreviated the thought a little too much, but my intent was to include Christians when I said, "whichever way they are compelled to argue without end."

A good post Con!  I agree with you and too believe Jesus IS the Son of God!

with this, I agree :)

God does not enslave any minds, we Christians willingly serve our lord, creator of everything and all living. The unbelievers are enslaved by Satan, who is a deceiver and a liar. God doesn't make mistakes. He knows the end from the beginning. Bible prophecy is History in advance. Satan is the God of this world temporarily and most people will follow him. I choose to follow Jesus and have eternal life rather than to follow Satan into his eternal death.

Well it's good to hear your mind isn't enslaved.  Since it's not, would you be so kind as to address the points I made?  Because leaving things as you have, I fear you have simply put exclamation points behind the statements I've typed here.

Ok, I've waited a couple of days now.  Is this the best your unenslaved mind has to offer?

Tell me the truth - are you not now chanting to yourself "This is the voice of Satan - he is trying to thwart you - don't even think of replying because then you're just doing exactly what we told you Satan would do."

Not enslaved, my buttocks.

Here's something for you to chew on - if you have the freedom of mind and the courage.

If YOU were Satan, and therefore your task was to keep people away from the ONE TRUTH, would the best way to do it NOT be by creating religion?  Think about it.  You could keep people from all over the world at each other's throats constantly with little effort.  It'd be a cakewalk because everyone was so easily scared.  This little pocket of humanity agrees that everyone has to behave THIS way to not die in eternal fire, and that little pocket determines that everyone has to behave THAT way to not die in eternal fire, and when the two pockets meet - well they spend all kinds of time and resources killing each other over the discrepancy.

You may not agree that that is a good way of putting it, but pick up a newspaper.  Isn't that exactly what's happening?

So if you agree that that is so, then Satan created religion.  ALL OF THEM.  To tear us apart from one another.  What is left, the truth, is as yet undiscovered.  And it will not BE discovered until people agree to NOT stop thinking by having "faith" in stuff.

Get back to me when whoever does your thinking for you allows it.

If creation is a myth, where did humanity originate? It takes more faith to believe Evolution than to believe creation. The Bible contains about 2,500 prophecies about the future. Approx. 2,000 have already been fulfilled exactly 100% correct. Only God can give History in advance. I'll go with truth. For 1,900 yrs it has been prophesied the Roman Empire would be revived. This prophecy was fulfilled Dec. 1, 2009. when Ireland signed the Lisbon Treaty. Now all 10 members with full voting rights have signed. They will now have their army this year. The Roman Empire is complete again. The EU will govern the world before many years pass. The US is losing it's status as a world power. It is all in the Bible, but not in storybook form. It takes a little study. God knows the future and has revealed it to His own.

If someone were to post a really huge calculus equation with all those weird symbols and tell me to solve it, I wouldn't look around slyly and say "5.7!" and then challenge people to prove me wrong.

I do not have "faith" in anything.  I have the courage to say "it looks this way or that way, but the bottom line is I do not know."  THAT is truth.

Regarding your Roman Empire story, if it's all predetermined, which you are clearly saying it is, then we are all just players in some elaborate story that has all been written, and nothing you or I do will change it.  In other words, we may have free will to choose whether to have grape jelly or marmalade on toast, but that's about the extent of our freedom.  If that's the case, then none of anything that happens is the actor's responsibility.  It all falls on the producer - God.  So how's he sending people to hell again when they had no choice in their outcome and is still to be considered benevolent?

Just for fun, post the Roman Empire prophecy verse.  Let's see how objective all of this is.

I did say that Bible Prophecy isn't in story book form, it is full of symbolism. I posted an article explaining the 13th Chap. of Revelation. It will take a little study and serious thinking to understand about this Beast with 7 heads & 10 horns. I'll end with a link to that post. I hope you do take time to understand. Briefly, the 7 heads symbolize 7 world kingdoms, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medes & Persians, Greece, Roman Empire and the 7th world kingdom, the EU (The revived Roman Empire) The 10 horns represent 10 kingdoms of the Revived Roman Empire. They are the 10 countries in the EU that have full voting rights: UK, Ireland, Portugal, Spain, France, Belgium, Luxemburg, Netherlands, Germany & Italy. The rest of the EU is made up of Observer or Associate members. Nov.10, 2009 Ireland signed the Lisbon Treaty. Now, the EU is an empire. Pres. Vaclev of the Czeck Republic said then, now there is no stopping the EU, they will have their army early in 2010. This revived Roman Empire is ready for the Antichrist to be the next world ruler. He will be a Catholic Pope & he will be Italian (Dan.9:26-27) (Dan.7:8) the Antichrist will be the little horn (King). The pope's title is Vicar Of The Son Of God (VICARIUS FILII DEI), using Roman Numerals it adds up to 666. Before the Antichrist is crowned, Jesus will Rapture the Christians out of this world and to Heaven. Our bodies will be changed in the twinkling of an eye into eternal bodies like Jesus got when he resurrected after dying to pay for our sins on the cross. Everyone left behind will suffer the worst times in History WW3. I could go on, but Like I said, I do hope you'll take an interest in learning. Your eternal life or eternal death is in the balance. I do know what I am talking about.

http://www.blogster.com/feralpuppies/13-seven-heads-ten-horns-030708175929

The problem, my dear puppie, is that symbolism is best reserved for symbol-minded people, and I'm not one of them.

I asked you for a very simple objective thing.  The chapter and verse of the Roman Empire prophecy you stated WAS TRUTH above.

What you gave me back was a bunch of twisted nonsense where you and others have taken the words of the Bible as clay and molded them into the shape that suited you.

Now I'm a tolerant person, so I'll give you another shot at it.  Show me objectively how the Bible stated the Roman Empire would reform, tell me WHO the head of that Roman Empire is so I can send him/her an E-mail, and if you can't do that, have the COURAGE to admit - you just don't know, either.

And I hope you can divide your mind well enough to answer a totally separate question.  Though I really have my doubts.

The atheist poster that was the original subject of all of this was offensive to you.

Why?  I have to guess.  I have to guess it's because you think everyone should think like you for their salvation, not to mention that then everything in the world would be done the way YOU think...oh...hahaha...my bad...the way JESUS thinks it should be done.

Did it ever occur to you that posting the Nativity was hateful to those who do not believe in Christ?  If you DARE tell me that it didn't matter because there weren't any words.....

So we have a couple of moral imperatives here.  There's the one that your Jesus, not born on December 25th, has, and then there's the one that pervades world culture regardless of religious affiliation.  But let's make sure the Christian moral imperative is the one that's signed into law, shall we?  That's tolerant.  That's fair.  That's forgiving and compassionate.  

All of these other religions feel just as strongly as you do that they are right.  They also have lots of fulfilled prophecy.  They also have lots of history.

You didn't honestly think yours is the only religion claiming thousands of years of fulfilled prophecy, did you?  Dudess.  Take a number.  Religions with full histories, texts, and prophecies are a dime a dozen, dear.  Christianity isn't the only one. And they all have great stories, by the way.  And all of those stories are used to rationalize the way they think things ought to be.

What I'm trying to get at is that Christianity isn't breaking any new ground.  It's acting exactly the same as Islam, for example. 

If you're going to post an article about some sort of religious fairness, you might not want to take a side, because the minute you do, your battle is lost to your complete hypocrisy.

Cheers.

I didn't say the sign was offensive to me, I just think they were showing their unbelief. The Bible didn't say when Jesus' birthday was. Actually it was a secular holiday first. Yes, Christianity has the Bible, it's God's Word. Only God can tell the future, others are vague and needs help in the interpretation, not accurate.

Christianity isn't trying to break new ground. Christianity is based on the Old Testament and it goes back to the 5 books of Moses and records events from the Garden of Eden. All other religions came later. Jesus is God. He took on a man's body and then gave his life on the cross so that whoever comes to him in faith believing the scriptures would have eternal life. Without Christ, no one can be saved. All others will go along with Satan to eternal death in the Lake of Fire. If I'm wrong, I have lost nothing and lived a better life. If you are wrong you go to eternal torment to pay for your own sins. You can't win and I can't lose. I'm not just trying to win a debate, as a Christian I am doing what the Bible teaches me to do, get the Word out so others can also be saved.

Uh, well first off, Judaism is based on the Old Testament.  Christianity is based on the New Testament.  Whatever the case, you're playing it safe for your own sake.  That part was pretty clear.  It's a safer bet.  Hope you didn't bet on the Colts.  That was a safer bet, too.

Of a curiosity, how exactly does God taking the form of a man and sacrificing himself change anything?  And why was it necessary?  If He really wanted to save us all, surely the creator of an entire universe could come up with a more elegant way...in fact, I'd think an omnipotent creator would find a way to get it right in the first place and not create a bunch of wily sinners such as ourselves.  But that brings us right back to Free Will, doesn't it?  And as long as you are bound to the physical and biological constraints your father has placed you in, you can't possibly have anything like free will.  Which puts the ball back in God's court no matter how you spell it.

Peace.

There are those who would like to brand the Bible as Hate Speech because it teaches that homosexuality is a sin. We all need to be tolerant of them who disagree. As Christians, we can't convert anyone, that is between God and each individual, we are just supposed to get the Word out. I agree with what you have to say. Thanks for your comment and visit. OckhamsRazor and I have been debating, but there has been no offense given or taken, but some want to dominate their adversary, that involves Hate Speech.

A book cannot hate.  People can, and do.  Sometimes they cite books as their reason.  Some cite the Bible as their reason.  It's still hate.

Silly me - throwing pearls before swine.