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The Offer.
Ever heard the offer that's made in dictator/gangster type movies? You know, "Do this as it's better for you, or else we'll do X"
It was always fascinating to me as a child, the portrayal of "double think" in that way was new to me. The "villain" shall we call them, were so convinced in their own ideas of justice and delusion, that they imposed that twisted logic to others. Either accept their offer and do as they say, or suffer at their hands. Obviously, they will justify this offer in many ways.
"Who in their right minds who deny such an offer? You're being given a chance to avoid this conclusion."
But, I see this same double think being used by Christians and Muslims on a daily basis now, which in a way fascinates me at how far their minds have warped. I'd hate to be stereotypical, so I'd say my accusations is primarily towards those actively professing their faith as truth in any public forum.
"God made an offer to you sinful lot, because he loves you. He created you sick, and under pain of eternal torture commanded you to be well. You can avoid this punishment if you submit and follow. Why would you reject it?"
The above, is the sickness every single christian believes. Every single one in order to say they are christian, must believe the above statement. This is the foundation of why Jesus died for their sins ofcourse, if we reject this his death will be meaningless. It would just be a mad preacher ahead of his time, tortured and executed.
But I hope everyone can see the double think involved in this, for anyone interested in the term. Double think is when you imagine or make something up, which you know is imaginary, and then convince yourself that it's true.
Foundations of the crime is laid in the following:-
Questionable premises:-
Does god exist? -Yes
Is this the biblical god? -yes
did this god actually write the bible, or is he just written about? -wrote the bible through posession/holy spirit.
All of these premises need to be correct in order for them to then come to the conclusion that hell is coming, and that they should all look busy.
It's an insult to be told something as insulting as being condemned to hell by any human being, and to speak in the name of god to be pretentious. I feel Omar Khayyam puts it the most eloquently of the disease I speak of.
Hope you all enjoyed the post.
"And do you think that unto such as you;
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew:
God gave the secret, and denied it me?--
Well, well, what matters it! Believe that, too" - Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam
P,s -
For anyone who criticises TheWriter in his "Honest Christian" blog stating that Jesus is but one way. I don't know what will save you from this disease. Will evidence of your bible being questionable satisfy you? Or your fictional concepts of heaven and hell being childish? Will the moral sins laid out in the Bible as ridiculus suffice? No? Then you've proven my point.
My support for TheWriter. The man wrote his heart and told his doubts and truths of his belief, and for him to be attacked by the most uneducated and illiterate people on this planet I felt was a terrible shame.
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I offer a counter question: why are you such a cock sucker? |
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Seriously? |
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Now now, don't bastardise your brother's sense of humour. You can't pull it off. -L |
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Sorry, I didn't mean to bastardise my brother's humor. It was a genuine question. |
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I've never seen stupidity portrayed in such a serious way. The answer is I'm not. You're entire logic has been haywired so I wasn't surprised you would reach a random conclusion of me perhaps in your gay fantasies sucking male genitals. However, it's not to say I'm condemning you coming out in this way, I think it's lovely that you're coming out of the closet however there are better ways to go on about it. May I suggest talking to GreatMartin? I heard he was inviting ShuBoots to a random bath house. -L |
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Portraying stupidity in a serious way: it's an art, and I'm a master. Unfortunatley some people are not able to comprehend higher arts, so they stick to science. I did ask Martin, he rejected me, so I went to the next best thing, you. But you haven't realized yet that your fundametalist science-religion is just a form of homophobia- hygenic fear. Not until you break free and realize your true identity. Until then I will wait for you. <3 |
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Yes ofcourse, science is homophobic. Religion has never tried to subjugate homosexuals have they? Idiocy needs only be underlined. -L |
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Well in a sense your fundamentalist, eletist science-worship is 1. A religion 2. Homophobic, racist, etc. because you treat religion as a disease (you've stated religion is a disease). So the only conclusion that can be reached from this is that you're a cocksucker |
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Well, it seems I'll have to break a long time rule but I wanted you to know why so you can atleast say I told you. Science is as much a religion, as belief in evidence is a form of faith. I'm not homophobic, you're a liar. I'm not racist, you're a liar. Lastly I treat religion as a disease because as you have currently shown us today, it makes normal people, say stupid and ridiculous things. The rule im breaking, is blocking people. I've found you to be a waste of time and energy furthermore nothing you've said is of any connection to what I've written here. Hope you don't take it personally, I'll pm you the same comment here, so despite being blocked you can accept the full humiliation personally. Regards -L |
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L- For an atheist you have quite a fascination with Christians. It's like there is something you want to know, but know you don't understand, so you reduce yourself, in your own frustration, to implying Christians can not possibly have the supreme knowledge you have esteemed yourself with..... What is it that really bugs you about Christians....? Their basic laws to be faithful, love everyone, don't steal, don't lie, don't cheat, don't murder, don't be unjust, how to treat your parents with honor? ..... what is it that offends you so? |
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Is this post true regarding the point it is making. Do you believe, that your god is offering us an olive tree, while saying we will go to hell if we don't accept. If it'se, true, I don't need to answer your question as it's self-evident. However if it's not true, then we can discuss that briefly. However, what I won't have is questions that avoid the point being made as if it doesn't exist and claim "what is it that annoys you". I just explained in this post, read it again. People have commented and professed exactly the same thing, I am not alone. So. ball is in your court. Best wishes -L |
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Since you made no expression of not liking the things I posed in the question, I will presume you have no complaint concerning those things. And with that, you have complaints only about certain parts of Christianity... okay... I asked you the other day, what your vision of hell was.......but you avoided the question. You simply think it is some awful place....but I doubt you know why it is awful. And apparently you think Heaven is some wonderful place....but I doubt you know why it is wonderful. Without knowing, or even hinting that you know the answers to those two questions....on what basis do you determine God is unjust in His judgement of who goes where?
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Rachel, if their wasn't God, there could be no atheist |
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oldman........interesting point!! |
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It's strange. I've never been asked questions about god and his mind and his thoughts, or views and different interpretations. Mostly it's due to the people who believe in Christianity often know that they have no evidence to base any of these questions. It's equivalent to me going on and on about Zeus or Apollo, how strong do you think Zeus' thunder bolt REALLY was? The question is meaningless. Similarly, I didn't answer your question because it's completely, utterly meaningless to me. You're asking me to comment on fiction, why? What are you going to get out of this mental masturbation excercise? Do you not see that your scriptures have been falsified within the last 30 years? Take the RSV version, have you not noticed the Ascension being wiped clean from your book? Or the verse "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the father, the son and holy ghost" completely REMOVED from your bible? Take a look, and then ask questions which are more important and much more pressing. Is your belief, true? If so, why is there such turbulance in your sources? Why is there no evidence that gospels were written by the authors, when the gospel of Matthew was disproven based on the fact that when Jesus approached him, Matthew never spoke in first person. Look up these things, then come back to me. This is because without us going through the first premise "Is this true?", I'm not willing to discuss whatever it is you want to discuss with the implied proposition that it is true. -L |
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I can't tell whether you're living in the bible belt of america, or you genuinely have the IQ of a grape. There have been countless gods before yours, atheists have existed since time immemorial. If you didn't know that, you really have humiliated yourself beyond anything I could have ever inflicted upon you at any point, which is why I'm screen shoting this comment for my society meeting at university, guexs what we're watching? Richard Dawkins- Root of all evil. You'll fit right in with the ignorance shown by the evolution deniers. I can't believe someone still exists who thinks atheist means "Rejecter of God". www.dictionary.com. "a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supremebeing or beings." Educate yourself, please. You're an embarrassment to the human race, but mostly mostly to your religion. If I genuinely found a smart christian, I wouldn't call christians silly, stupid, naive and delusional. I'm being honest. -L |
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I am not going to debate the Bible with you. I have nothing to prove TO you and you can not PROVE anything to me. I will reveal what you have been curious about. It is already obviously known, I believe in God Almighty and you do not. You have made your little digs known against those who believe, and we both know why......not the topic........but rather noted. Heaven or Hell. Those are simply two separate places....like the US and Iran. The US was designed for Americans and Iran for Iranians....with me on the concept so far? Currently there is a mix of some Americans in Iran and some Iranians in America....yes? Now for ex - say I am in America, I say America is good and Iran bad. And Ms I is from Iran and says Iran is good and America bad. And -L (you) are from another country, never having been to either, decides one is good and one is bad. -L has made a determination only on hearsay. yes? It appears you have made a determination on Heaven and Hell......as one place being good and the other bad. If you look at the example of the countries......you see no difference, except opinions. Both have people who love, live, have families, eat, work, play, etc. yes? Since I believe God IS the creator of ALL things, (which your beloved science does not prove differently)......I believe He gave free will, for every individual to think and believe whatever they choose. The concept of Heaven, is simply a place, where those who CHOOSE to believe in Him, will go. The concept of Hell, is simply a place, where those who CHOOSE to NOT believe in Him will go. It is His decision to separate People according to their CHOICES. It is a concept, that EVERYONE, by their OWN feel will CHOICE will get what they CHOSE. Heaven is simply a PLACE for believers to BE ETERNALLY with the LORD...without the unbelievers present....and THAT to believers....is a GOOD PLACE. Hell is simply a PLACE for unbelievers to BE ETERNALLY separated (WITH OUT) the LORD.....without the presence of believers & without God....THAT to unbelievers ....should be a GOOD PLACE. So you see -L..........it is the perspective of who chooses what....God or not.....as to where they will eventually end up....And because the concept of Heaven and Hell exists in virtually every faith......it is a well know concept. And by and large, you don't even have to believe in either eternal place, because your lack of believing, only affects you. God is Great...and JUST....everyone will get what they wanted!! Even you -L.........as you have chosen to be eternally without God...He makes sure you get what you chose.... How awesome eh?....and better yet...believers and unbelievers WILL not have to be mixed any more.... AWESOME!!
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Your answer is bad on only two accounts and I otherwise think it was a good effort. The country example is bogus, because neither you nor I have actually gone to heaven nor hell. We're stating opinions based on a fictional book, which is why I specifically said let's not discuss it. Secondly you mentioned science doesn't say otherwise regarding the god hypothesis. but, you see you've lied once again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God:_The_Failed_Hypothesis But in a way you have proven the point of this post, I find myself fortunate you didn't realise the irony of "fate" in terms of god knowing our future, and "free will" in which we make our own decisions. Nor did you realise the philosophical implication of why "free will" isn't really free will due to it being "given" by someone. "Ofcourse we have a choice! the big boss insists upon it!" So you've missed 99.9% of why your case is false from the beginning and just gave an over-simplified, white noise sample of what I originally was talking about in this blog. Which is, that an offer is made. You can't dodge this offer nor duck it, and once it has been made you must make a choice, either on bad evidence and irrationality, or bravery and logic/reasoning. This isn't about seprating believers from non-believers. It's the fact the claim is a non-existent one, and yet it's something people hold so, so dearly that it's quite alarming. Also, you neglected the example I gave in regards to eternal hell fire for uneblievers. Matthew 24-41 wasn't it? Omittinhg information in the hopes of it just being a seperate class room of two different ideaologies is cute but as i said untrue. Remember, a claim made is not a claim that has the potential to be true. I can claim that if you stand on your head while reciting the Bible backwards and then at the end scream "is bullshit" a blackhole will appear and take you to heaven. The trouble of doing that is silly, and the claim itself is ridiculous. The perfect way I sum up what you're proposing to me now.I'll be happy and be the first to admit that I have rejected your offer from your god or whatever church or interpretation you follow, purely due to bad evidence, illogical reasoning and self-evident lies. now, you can take my answer and continue to believe that I will get what I deserve your entire life and be satisfied. But besides being cute I find it to just be silly =/. Mainly because a muslim believes that about you and me. A man made concept by definition. Infact it's part of why Christianity and Islam are so evil. IT's divisive. You've mentioned it already, the seperation of believers and unbelievers. I'm not promoting this, I'm saying we are all human beings and should live together, and if I can be forgiving enough for that, surely so can god, but the one you describe does not. The irony. -L |
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We have differences of opinions. You choose to believe one thing, I choose to believe another. It doesn't make me a liar, silly, ridiculous, illogical, false.......or any of the other things you have stated. By logic itself, I could say the same about you, but I haven't, nor do I need to, to make myself feel superior, more convincing, more intelligent, or for any other reason. "I'm saying we are all human beings and should live together, and if I can be forgiving enough for that, surely so can god, but the one you describe does not." What you are saying is what YOU believe the way things should be. Why should I consider your feelings? Surely, you don't think I should be forced to have things the way YOU want, do you? And what makes you think God is not forgiving? Do you presume the separation is about forgiveness? It's not. Besides, How could someone you do not believe in forgive you? How would you even know?
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Now now madam, let's not show your double thinking mentality already. I only quoted your own text, against the point you made about your own religion. It mentions eternal hell fire, word for word, which you claimed wasn't in your book. For which, I have not heard a concession, feel free to write that you were wrong as a reply to this comment. Secondly, I brought a huge number of points which you have not answered. Mainly because they can not be answered, therefore what you're saying now is that you "believe" this to be true. Which was exactly what I said, when I said that your current set of beliefs, are based on delusionary terms. It wasn't an insult, it was intellectual honesty in the face and light of the evidence presented. Now, portraying me as "arrogant" doesn't work. Mainly because I didn't say I have the answer. I merely stated you're wrong, but it's not the same as what you're doing which is "i am right, this belief is correct". Your belief self-evidently is not correct, and I've invited you to question mine in the face and light of the evidence we currently have. Fair game? Now, you picked a phrase I stated. "I'm saying we are all human beings, and should live together". You stated that this is what I "believe" the way things should be, and you don't have to do it. Surely, you don't want to be forced to be loving, peaceful and sincere while living in harmony with human beings. You rather be hateful, vengeful, vindictive, bloodthirsty as all americans in the bible belt area are, and be delusional. Fair enough madam, but atleast you were honest and open enough to say it publically. However, if you would kindly look below to TheWriter's response, you'll see no one shared this delusion of hatred that belongs to you. If you reject, that everyone should live in peace, harmony and love. Then we have very little to discuss, just as I don't have anything to discuss with a racist or a kkk member, or a neo-nazi. You fall into this pile, unless you can accept that we should all live in peace, love and harmony. The rest once again is white noise to me. It seems whenever I make a statement regarding the fictional story in the Bible, e.g "God is forgiving", or "god punishes non-believers", you seem to have a straw stuck up your ass. You yourself can believe whatever you wish, as you've revealed to me you're just a hateful person. However, have you noticed you're the only christian deluded enough to question the premise "god is forgiving". TheWriter has not picked this out, the other viewers who viewed this blog hadn't said this. It's only you. Religion always starts with the madness of a single person. -L |
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You are delusional. And as typical is the case with liberals and anti-Christs.....YOU have decided you are authorized to decide my feelings, express them for me, then proceed to bash me, for your thoughts.....and out of your frustration, I see you have already progressed to the next step of name calling and cussing.... Don't presume you shock me by your nonsense, God warned us long ago about people like you and your tactics. Don't be mad because you are so transparent...you can't help it. God is Great!
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....quite juvenile really... (snicker) |
I stopped reading "God warned us about people like you" I can't genuinely be conversing with people who listen to imaginary friends, and believe them. -L |
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I have no idea what imaginary friends you speak of.....since I see nothing about "friends" being in this blog. You can believe the testimony of whatever men you choose to believe....and I can do the same. What you believe does not affect me. I don't have to discount what you say, to make my position APPEAR more believable....unlike your tactics... God Bless you......oh, that's right, He already has! |
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You don't have to, however it adds more value to a words more so than a crazed individual speaking of ghosts, goblins and witches which no one has seen and only "believed" they may have been touched by them. -L |
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If you choose to purport yourself as a crazed individual who speaks on behalf of ghosts, goblins and witches, that is your business......I didn't make such a claim for myself. |
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Who do you speak for? -L |
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Myself and sometimes others. And if you choose to speak for ghosts, goblins and witches....while amusing, it doesn't affect me. |
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If you haven't guessed it, I guess i can spell it out. -L |
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Well, I have never said to you that I speak to gods or speak for gods....so why you feel the need to make assumptions and use obscure terms makes no sense......
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So quoting the Bible is not speaking for god I assume? -L |
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No, it is not speaking "FOR" God. I am in agreement with Him and use His words. |
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You're speaking for god. -L |
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How ignorant. |
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Crucify thank you for coming to my defense. There are a lot of things I wasn't aware of. I'm happy that you raise the questions about Religion that doesn't make sense to you. Whereas others may get upset for you voicing your concerns I don't. I'll be more concerned if I didn't have loving answers for your concerns. I want to encourage you to continue to speak out and challenge Christians and Muslims to defend their beliefs. I don't have the answers for most of the things you said or asked. Simply put it I wasn't there. Could it be imaginary? I don't know, but it feels too good to be dismissed as imaginary to me. You see Crucify when I spend quiet times in meditation on my love for Christ, fantasy or not I get the answers that I'm looking for. He provides me the compass for the directions I'm looking for in my life. He teaches me how to love unselfishly which is something I use in my marriage, and in my encounters outside of marriage whether it is my work life or how I treat my neighbors or those who are different from me including you. Christianity is like a Customer Service job. Regardless of how much the customer disagrees with you or complain or even curse you off, you just got to keep on loving on them or even try to fix the problem that exists. When the customer is satisfied, or comes to your defence like you did for me? It just brings a great joy in our hearts and I give all the praise to Jesus. I hope you don't mind me posting my answer as a blog to encourage others to stop hating on you for speaking your mind.
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Thankyou for your response. Well I feel that it's more problematic to discuss anything especially when the other person has similar questions. Reason being, they have the same questions as you, but they have fallen into a trap or perhaps more mildly put, taken a leap of faith for no reason. You mention, it feels too good to be false, but many things can feel good and still be false. I can imagine that I, myself am special, more so than any of you infact, the most special person in the world. Feels damn good, however it's also associated with psychiatric disorder. Truth and falsehood have no bearing on what "feels good" and I'd like for an admission atleast from yourself or any believing christian that if they truly do believe in Christianity because it feels good and it must right, then atleast profess it as such. Don't say it's truth, don't say it even "can" be true. Remember, I'm not trying to convert any one, it's meaningless to me. I just wanted honesty. Now, Rachel above claimed in another blog of a blogger who wrote about you e.g honest christian. In this blog, she said that God never mentions "Eternal hell fire" in her bible. I gave her the verse, chapter, gospel and even pasted it so people can read. How can someone be a christian and lie this much? Why is my hatred for such people questioned when this is self-evident when anyone reads or hears such people. Custom service is a mild way of putting it, as it's really snake oil merchants. You have the devilish offer I elaborated above, a punishment, and the communication of this said offer triggers this inescapable situation. By gosh I can even say Christianity is the sole root of everyone going to hell if it existed, purely because of the message being spread. I remember in my old worker days a saying, "The customer is always right". If you're a customer service, and I'm saying your service is poor, I asked for evidence (X product) and you gave me Eggs and a "Come back soon" gift card. I'm obviously not going to come back, infact I'll tell others of this terrible service and to avoid it at all costs. Why hasn't this been taken into consideration for the last few hundred years since Christianity has been in decline? Why are we still given the same animalistic treatment of "Accept this, or hell cause god says so", plus the question is given with the sole intention and knowledge that you, the messenger is not going to be condemned. That's what is perhaps another pet peeve, Christians are under this assumption that they are exempt. That their belief in Jesus is a "Get out of jail for free" card however no evidence regarding the Bible being true, historically, or Jesus' ressurection historically has ever been proven. This is available to you, TheWriter. You know this, I'm positive of this. But you're here saying these things which sound absolutely deplorable to any sane person. What makes you do this? Please, I am very happy for you to write any blog. Hope to hear from you soon sir. -L |
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Crucify as a Christian I enjoy my life. I love the principles I live by. What's more to say? I can only sell you what i experience the moment I experience it. It may not be for you, but there are otheres who can relate to it. I prefer the principles of Christianity over the truth of Christianity. The principle is alive and will last for ever. The principle will grow in the churches and it will be celebrated with joyous singing and rejoicing. That is how we roll Crucify. I won't stand here an argue over things of history like you do, but I believe the principles are worth living by. I hope I don't convey a message of hate to you. |
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You are right about the Aboriginee's...they had no idea...until they were told they were going to hell. Some believe in God/Jesus now, and some stick to Dreamtime. But it is well known their belief was corrupted because of stories of condemnation and punishment in hell, by white folk, as they call us. All in the name of religion, no, a better religion, a more structured belief. Or so they say... |
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I'm with you on that one MissE |
Pascal's Wager is one of that sort of statement: There is much to be gained by believing and little to lose by doing so. The argument is fallacious and doesn't prescribe any particular god, but people like to imply the Christian one.